Track Day CMP! OMG CMP Part 2!!! August 27/28 with N2

bmart

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Boike, I think that Andy got it right. The pics you posted show you looking pretty good, not some of "the centered head" that I saw when following you. I didn't run the camera all weekend, so sorry for that!

CaptainNovice jokes about my smooth style and low effort riding, but it was born of necessity. It has served me well. People with normal bodies probably don't have to take the idea so far, but going home not sore is a big win for me.

People's bodies are different. Bikes are different. Setup is different. And that is just the start. Track days are for exploring within limits. Conversations with coaches and formal instruction should be a two way street. Perfect form means nothing if it causes someone major pain. Talk with folks and ingest their ideas, knowing that their not all good ideas or ones that will work for you. Try some things and see what works for you. Moving your body can lower CG and any bits you move to the side will provide you either more grip or more speed. But, they can come with consequences (give/take, ying yang, potato...nevermind).

The example that I like to use with folks is when they're in a turn they should not see the gauges. Their head should be off to the side AND looking down the track. This is a crystal clear for them to implement "head low and off the side," right?

Not so fast... Some folks, frequently women, have shorter arms and cannot get off to the side that much. Some bikes have really wide bars, so that outside hand in a turn is already pretty far away from center. They simply cannot be off to the side so much. Adventure style bikes are normally built with wide bars also. Short legs play a part. Many people can never look like the advanced guy Andy posted. I don't think that I could.

When folks start their trip down "get your head off of the side" lane, the immediate tendency is to hang on the outer grip and push the inner grip. Of course, this can really test the abilities of the front tire. This is the primary reason for getting the contact points right (and why I harp on the topic so much with students). I use the same points as Dan, but with a likely higher % of pressure on the outside of the tank than most.

On the surface, it all seems pretty simple, but in practice, there is so much to know and implement properly. And much of it changes with conditions, tire choice, etc. I've been at it for decades and still learn things at every track day.
 

AndyMX47

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It’s a little different for everyone. But you have to figure out how to get your outside leg locked between the tank and the peg. I move my outside foot so I can lock my heal on the peg which makes it easy to hold my inner thigh against the tank without having to use muscles. When I ride I can take my inside foot off the peg because I’m not using it to support my weight.
So my feet are moving constantly back and forth on the pegs between my heal and the ball of my foot.
Thanks Dan, super helpful!
 

boike333

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Argh! Too much information for me right now! I’ll have to post up on all of this when I get home…….
 

JustAnotherSquid

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Matt, one thing that helps me TONS is sliding back on the seat while braking and staying there while cornering. If I stay up on the tank (which is normally my habit) it makes it awkward to get my body off and head down. Sliding back a bit makes it all much easier. Andy Crossman and RocketDan told me this way back in early 2021 but it took a while to sink in.
 

boike333

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It’s a little different for everyone. But you have to figure out how to get your outside leg locked between the tank and the peg. I move my outside foot so I can lock my heal on the peg which makes it easy to hold my inner thigh against the tank without having to use muscles. When I ride I can take my inside foot off the peg because I’m not using it to support my weight.
So my feet are moving constantly back and forth on the pegs between my heal and the ball of my foot.
Problem is I think I am doing it but obviously I am not!
 

boike333

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The pics you posted show you looking pretty good, not some of "the centered head" that I saw when following you. I didn't run the camera all weekend, so sorry for that!
These were from the morning sessions, wonder if infer last as the day goes on?
 

boike333

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Not so fast... Some folks, frequently women, have shorter arms and cannot get off to the side that much. Some bikes have really wide bars, so that outside hand in a turn is already pretty far away from center. They simply cannot be off to the side so much.
Wonder if this is me with the wide flat bars?
 

boike333

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Matt, one thing that helps me TONS is sliding back on the seat while braking and staying there while cornering. If I stay up on the tank (which is normally my habit) it makes it awkward to get my body off and head down. Sliding back a bit makes it all much easier. Andy Crossman and RocketDan told me this way back in early 2021 but it took a while to sink in.
Good call, all about practice and there is only one way to do that!
 

boike333

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This what you mean bmart?
 

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RocketDan

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Wonder if this is me with the wide flat bars?
You are tall enough, I doubt your wide bars are inhibiting your ability to move to the side of the bike.

From my experience, when people struggle with getting their body to the inside, and that struggle increases as the day goes on, it means they are not supporting their weight properly with their outside leg. They are “perching” on their inside leg which really isn’t strong enough to support all of their weight, so they compensate by holding onto the bars. As the day goes on and their legs fatigue they transfer more and more weight to the bars.

I’m pretty sure we talked about this at your last PRE event, and the pictures look like you are experimenting with a different foot position? Maybe you are working on this? A fundamental change in body position takes time so don’t expect to all of a sudden not be sore after a track day.

And to Brad’s point, everyone is different and needs to find their own style. I used to have super extreme body position. But as I gained experience I learned to use my body just as much as I needed to. I’m still more extreme that most, and I also can’t touch my knee down. But that works for me. They main thing is learning to dynamically use your body, sort of as a moving ballast, to help the bike work better in different parts of the turn/track. This all starts with a proper base that allows you to be supported so your hands are free to provide inputs to the bars.

Watch John Dunham (fastest guy I know) ride, he uses very little body movement. But he does enough to make the bike to work, or better said, allow the bike to work. The bike works on its own because of physics. We have to learn how to ride the bike and not mess up the physics.

Gosh my posts are starting to get to be as long as BMart’s….
 

bmart

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Gosh my posts are starting to get to be as long as BMart’s….
Challenge accepted. lol

In the middle of your post I was thinking "write about Dunham"...then you did it for me. He woouldn't win any body position awards. You can tell him that if you can catch him. He is also the most curteous fast rider I know.
 

boike333

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From my experience, when people struggle with getting their body to the inside, and that struggle increases as the day goes on, it means they are not supporting their weight properly with their outside leg. They are “perching” on their inside leg which really isn’t strong enough to support all of their weight, so they compensate by holding onto the bars. As the day goes on and their legs fatigue they transfer more and more weight to the bars.
I definitely agree and I was actually noticing this later In the day with my arms! And I am definitely perching as you say as well.
I’m pretty sure we talked about this at your last PRE event, and the pictures look like you are experimenting with a different foot position? Maybe you are working on this? A fundamental change in body position takes time so don’t expect to all of a sudden not be sore after a track day.
we did talk about this and I still haven’t remedied yet. I am not trying a different foot position but just to hold onto the tank with my outer leg as suggested. I do notice riding on the street though that having my outer leg/foot at the heel doesn’t provide me the right grip, which I didn’t remember last weekend.

Understood on the other points made.
 

boike333

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That's more of what I saw...and how you were in "the outside of turn 5" incident. :)
OK I really want to talk about this turn 5 thing. Can we pull a picture up and draw the line? Everyone draw the line they think is right and post it at 9 am tomorrow to see the different thoughts? Would be fun! But it has to be the whole 4-7 line.
 

boike333

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Hahahahah! I tried myself! Ok well $&@“! I thought that’s where I was? Or was at least trying to be! Where did you see me?
 

bmart

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Your line out of turn 5 was early and wide, so you were on the rumble strips and "modifying body position and trajectory!" lol
 

JustAnotherSquid

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I try to straight-shot 4-5 much more than most other people and it works. I suspect part of it is just the SV so maybe it will help you too. Once past the tight part of 5 just roll on the throttle until you reach your comfortable max lean and hold that until the exit of 7. Figuring out where the tight part of 5 ends is just experience; it took me many days to feel it and I'm just now getting to that point!
 
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RocketDan

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EFAB31B8-2EF4-4A7A-B052-8BDD1A5DD118.jpeg

Here is GPS tracking of my actual line. But, the map data is a little off so you have to imagine the track shifted a little to the right. I promise I don’t run over the curbs going through turn 5.
 

RocketDan

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I hit a late apex at 4, immediately flip over and drive straight past turn 5, I drift out and let the corner slow me down, then gas it across turn 6 towards the outside to setup for the drive out past turn 7.

The important parts of the carousel are going in and coming out.
 
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